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Post by shewolfe on Jan 12, 2009 0:31:29 GMT -5
Ron Paul: Israeli acts in Gaza 'immoral' Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:30:44 GMT Smoke billows from the Gaza Strip as seen over the roof tops of the Israeli kibbutz of Nativ Haasara. Israel is now engaged in urban fighting against Hamas. Congressman Ron Paul condemns the violence in the Gaza Strip, saying the "collective punishment" against Palestinians is immoral. "Many innocent children are among the dead. While the shooting of rockets into Israel is inexcusable, the violent actions of some people in Gaza does not justify killing Palestinians on this scale," said the outspoken Republican. Israel launched Operation Cast Lead on December 27 against Gaza to put an end to rocket attacks launched from the coastal enclave. At least 888 Palestinians have been killed during the Israeli operation, while some 3,700 others are reported wounded. At least 10 Israeli soldiers have died in the now 16-day onslaught. Hamas, the democratically-elected ruler of the impoverished strip, demands a cessation of an 18-month Israeli blockade on Gaza before it stops rocket attacks on Israel. The US Congress endorsed a resolution Friday to support Israel in its offensive in Gaza, "recognizing Israel's right to defend itself against attacks from Gaza." Congressman Paul, however, says the resolution "clearly takes one side in a conflict that has nothing to do with the United States or US interests." "At the very least, the U.S. Congress should not be loudly proclaiming its support for the Israeli government's actions in Gaza," Paul added. The Israeli operation has entered its third week now, despite international calls and a UN Security Council resolution which urge an immediate end to the attacks against the densely-populated strip. MD/MD www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=81830§ionid=3510203
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Post by shewolfe on Jan 12, 2009 0:41:27 GMT -5
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Post by Roland of Gilead on Jan 12, 2009 15:28:12 GMT -5
Ok...I'll elaborate on this when I have the time with my own computer. My dislike and contempt for the artificial nationality that calls itself "Palestinian," goes way back. You can be shocked at my "cockroach" comment, but I'm totally consistent with the way you've always known me.
Not every Jew is a Zionist, but by the same token, not every Zionist is a Jew. I'm not a Jew, but I'm probably the most rabid Zionist you'll ever encounter, more so than the elected Israeli leaders. My reasons are so complicated and deep-rooted I'll need hours to explain.
It goes back more than 40 years for me.
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Post by davidlee on Jan 13, 2009 9:51:31 GMT -5
Now that story I would be interested in hearing!
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Post by Roland of Gilead on Jan 13, 2009 15:16:50 GMT -5
Most of my ideas on Israel and the middle east come from Rabbi Meir Kahane, who was assassinated in New York about 10 years ago. I don't agree with him on everything, of course, but when I say the "Palestinians" should be removed from the West Bank, that's where I got the idea. He founded the "Jewish Defense League" in the 60's, I think. Here's the site of his organization, which still exists. Keep in mind, his ideas were so radical, his party was banned in Israel. kahane.org/
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cdh
Full Member
Posts: 104
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Post by cdh on Jan 14, 2009 10:46:11 GMT -5
Count the democracies in the Middle East and you end up with one Israel. Turkey comes close but this isn't horseshoes.
What would we do if 3500 rockets had been fired into our country over two years?
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Post by sonofwolfe on Jan 14, 2009 11:34:11 GMT -5
By NEVE GORDON
JERUSALEM.
Anyone who follows the news has no doubt come across the claim that "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East." Usually, this claim is followed by its logical inference: "As an island of freedom located in a region controlled by military dictators, feudal kings and religious leaders, Israel should receive unreserved support from western liberal states interested in strengthening democratic values around the globe."
Over the years, some of the fallacies informing this line of argument have been exposed. Whereas many commentators have emphasized that foreign policy is determined by selfish interests rather than by moral dictates, few analysts have challenged the prevailing view that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.
In order to examine this issue, one must first determine Israel's international borders. Insofar as Israel's borders extend from the Jordan Valley to the Mediterranean Sea -- the de-facto situation for over 36 years -- then the state of Israel currently consists of a population of over 9 million people, 3.5 million of whom cannot vote.
De-facto, then, Israel is not a democracy. One-third of the demos does not enjoy a series of basic rights which make up the pillars of liberal democracies. The state of Israel has existed for 55 years and has controlled the Palestinian population in the occupied territories without giving them political rights for two-thirds of this period. Accordingly, the notion that the occupation is provisional or temporary should, by now, be considered an illusion concealing the reality on the ground.
If, however, one chooses to explore the issue exclusively from a de-jure perspective, that is, from inside the internationally recognized pre-1967 territories, it is still unclear to what extent Israel is a democracy.
There is the question of 400,000 Jewish Settlers -- seven percent of the citizenry -- all of whom enjoy full citizenship rights but do not live in Israel proper. This leads to a series of contradictions, not least the fact that Israel is the only country in the world where government ministers and parliament members live permanently outside its borders.
Even if one were to disregard this reality as well and were only to take into account the six million people living inside Israel proper, one would find an extremely tenuous democracy. The contradictions that have characterized Israel's policies in the occupied territories are now catching up to the state, and their detrimental effects have become apparent for all to see.
Consider a report just published by the Israeli Democracy Institute (IDI), which like most other think tanks (in Israel and abroad), conceives of Israel in the de-jure sense, ignoring the de-facto situation. IDI examined several aspects of Israel's democracy, and its findings suggest that "over the last few years there has been a significant decline in the Jewish population's support of democratic norms on all levels: general support of the democratic system, support of specific democratic values, and support for equal rights for the Arab minority."
IDI found that only 77 percent of the Jewish population supports the statement that "democracy is the best form of government," the lowest percentage (alongside Poland) among the 32 countries for which there is available data. Over half the population (56%) is of the opinion that "strong leaders can be more useful to the state than all the deliberations and laws." Fifty percent concur that if there is a conflict between security interests and the preservation of the rule of law, the former should take precedence. And only 57 percent agree with the statement that violence should never be used to attain political objectives.
More than half of the Jews in Israel (53%) state that they are against full equality for the Arabs; 77 percent say there should be a Jewish majority on crucial political decisions; less than a third (31%) support having Arab political parties in the government; and the majority (57%) think that the Arabs should be encouraged to emigrate. Not only is the majority of the Jewish population against the provision of equal rights for Arab citizens, half of the Jews are even unwilling to face up to the fact that Palestinian citizens of Israel are discriminated against.
Public trust in institutions has also declined in recent years due to widespread corruption and a lack of social cohesion. Yet, tellingly, the Israeli military -- and not the legislature, courts or government ministries -- is the most trusted institution.
Even if one were to stubbornly hold on to the illusion that Israel exists only within the pre-1967 borders, one would still have to acquiesce that while democracy may exist, it now stands on very shaky grounds. The great political theorist Montesquieu taught us as much. In addition to his well known claim that freedom can be secured only through the separation of the legislative, judicial, and executive powers, he asserted that if a regime is to maintain its form, the norms and values held by a people must correspond with the regime's basic principles.
The IDI report clearly reveals that even within Israel proper the majority of the population no longer believes in the basic principles of democracy -- equality and freedom -- thus suggesting that democracy is in demise. If, however, one faces up to the fact that Israel's borders reach the Jordan Valley, then democracy simply does not exist.
Neve Gordon teaches politics at Ben-Gurion University Israel, and can be reached at neve_gordon@yahoo.com.
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Post by Roland of Gilead on Jan 15, 2009 14:10:26 GMT -5
When Israel declared it's independence in 1948, about half the Arab workers fled in advance of a promised Arab annihilation. Those descendants who remain in the West Bank and Gaza certainly don't have a vote. They were deserters, but their Arab home countries would not allow them back in either.
Those Arabs who remained loyal became full Israeli citizens and have the vote, and even seats in the Kinesset. They have prospered, and do not consider themselves Palestinian, but Israeli. They practice Islam, but serve in the Israeli armed forces and make up approximately 38% of the Israeli population. They have larger families, so there is some fear as to what might happen if they become a majority. Yet, they seem to remain loyal.
Only a certain percentage of the West Bank has been handed over to the Palestinian Authority. The balance, where the settlements in question are, is still Israeli territory. Gaza is a seperate question, since it's really Egyptian territory. But the Egyptians don't want it back. The Gazans don't recognize the Palestinian authority either, and seem to be in a constant state of war with both Israel and the West Bank Palestinians.
Even in the time of the Pharoahs, when Gaza was an Egyptian Outpost, it was a semi-outlaw region, very hard to administer. It was sort of the equivalent of what Waziristan is to Pakistan, that is technically Pakistani, but unmanageable.
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tilos
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by tilos on Jan 15, 2009 23:35:32 GMT -5
Shooting cheap ass rockets into the backyard of a very well armed neighbor is .... well STUPID!
I have read the history of the region (last 100 years... not to mention several thousand).
The number one rule is (drumroll please)
Whoever can hold the area and/or control it by force or proxy "owns" it.
Right now Israel owns the territory based on historical legal precedent.
If the Palestinians were as well armed as Israel and Israel was not well defended... then ... Genocide with no apologies by Hamas or however was in charge of the Palestinian government.
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Post by Roland of Gilead on Jan 16, 2009 14:40:36 GMT -5
Don't forget that, in the opinion of some, we "occupy" most of the Western US. Mexico has never recognized their loss of the Southwest, and even I am sitting on "occupied" Mexican land. If the Jews are forced to leave "occupied" territory, then I am also obligated to move back to Florida or somewhere else to the east.
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Post by sonofwolfe on Jan 16, 2009 15:51:37 GMT -5
Might makes right. This has nothing to do with whats moral
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cdh
Full Member
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Post by cdh on Jan 16, 2009 19:32:01 GMT -5
Never did put any faith in university academics. They have never lived in the real world. Ask the Liberal Party of Canada.
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Post by sonofwolfe on Jan 16, 2009 19:45:56 GMT -5
Issues are much simpler at either end of the gun. And that is about as real as it gets.
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cdh
Full Member
Posts: 104
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Post by cdh on Jan 17, 2009 14:02:37 GMT -5
NEVE GORDON is some academic piece of work isn't he. Complains about 3.5 million in Israeli not allowed to vote. Well their not citizens for fuck sake. We do the same here. He doesn't like 400 million Jews with citizen ships who do not reside in Israel. Well ask Canadians about the dumb Lebanon Canadians who wanted Canada to rescue them because now they were no longer Lebanese. They were Canadians, of convenience. www.shoaheducation.com/balf.htmlThere is no such thing as a Palastinian. Neve Gardon is a frigging idiot. These so called Palestinians should be smoked and burnt with RAMS Ar co high test with Gardon at the top of the pile.
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